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Prelimary Transcript
Copyright Democracy in Action/Eric M. Appleman

COKIE ROBERTS:  ...need to move on to education and social issues.  And Mr. Forbes has the first question on education and social issues.  And that is: Nationwide, education is being cited by voters as the number one issue.  Here in New Hampshire even more so it's being cited by voters as the number one issue.  Now that could be because New Hampshire feels it's in something of an education crisis since the Court has thrown out its primary system of financing the schools.  And today the State Senate voted for an income tax to try to finance the schools.  We'll see how that all comes out; it's politically very up in the air.  How do we get bollixed up like this and how do we get out of it? STEVE FORBES:  Well the reason we have an education crisis in America is because education is a monopoly.  Monopolies don't work in business; they don't work in education.  Every American parent should have the freedom to send their child to the school they think best for that child.  That means taking money from the Education Department, block granting it back to states and municipalities with the proviso--and this is what I'll do as president--with the proviso that parents have genuine free choices to pick their own school, any school they wish.  Also too when you have that kind of freedom, standards are raised. In Milwaukee, for example, they've had an experiment for several years of allowing parents true choice, growing each year.  Earlier this year, the Supreme Court refused to throw that experiment out.  You know what happened?  The regular school system made this offer to parents.  They said if you enroll your child in a public school in kindergarten we the school system guarantee that your child will be reading at grade level by the end of second grade or the school at its own expense will provide the tutoring and teaching necessary to bring that child up to speed.  That's the kind of accountability we want.  You only will have it with freedom.  That's why I want parents, not politics running our schools.  Washington has to get out of the education business.  They're trying to take it over.  Make no mistake about standards at a national level.  That's the way of Washington taking over our curriculum and we shouldn't tolerate it. COKIE ROBERTS:  Senator McCain? SEN. JOHN McCAIN:  Indeed if we're going to take full advantage of this incredible information technology revolution that we're experiencing we have to, we must, improve education.  It has become an equal rights issue in America, it really has.  Its become a civil rights issue.  Because the poorest students in America are suffering and the wealthiest obviously have the kind of choice and competition that every school child in America should have. First, let's start paying teachers more.  Let's put in merit pay.  Let's help those teachers who are not good teachers find another line of work.  There's no reason why a good teacher should be paid less money than a bad Senator.  Let's try vouchers.  I have a proposal--take away the ethanol subsidies; take away the sugar subsidies; take away the gas and oil subsidies.  You can have a test voucher program in every poor school district in every state in America.  Let's try it. Charter schools work in my state; they're a resounding success.  We have a wonderful superintendent of education, Lisa Graham Keegan, who's done a marvelous job.  We can through choice and competition improve the level of education in America to put it to the same level as our colleges and universities, which are the best in the world, but we're going to have to do a lot of work and we're going to have to break the grip of the teachers unions if we're going to be able to achieve that. COKIE ROBERTS:  Mr. Keyes. ALAN KEYES:  Well, I think it is clear that one main principle needs to be re-implemented in our approach to education: parents need to be put in the diver's seat once again, instead of educrats and bureaucrats.  To that end, we need to break the government monopoly on education by making sure that the money we spend on education follows the choice of parents, not the choice of the educrats and the bureaucrats. That will then do two things.  It will make sure that the schools have to be responsive to the parents, who will then be able to send their children to schools of their choice, set up new schools if they think that is what is necessary.  But it will also reestablish a vital link that has been broken between faith and moral viewpoint, and our educational system. People say, "Why are there guns and killing in school?"  Well, I'll tell you.  We got the guns in because we drove God out.  And we will get God back in, when we put parents back in the driver's seat so they can send their children to schools that reflect their faith, their values, their sense of the moral priorities that are the real basis for educational success and motivation. I think that that two-fold approach, which empowers parents at the grassroots and which reestablishes the vital connection between education and our moral discipline and our moral principles are the key to seeing our schools improve. What is not the key, by the way, is what is often implied when people talk in these terms of poor and rich, and all this stuff. We have some of the poorest people in the country in the District of Columbia; we also have some of the highest per capita spending per student. It hasn't produced great results, because money is not the key. We need to look at the true keys, and not talk as if throwing money at education will solve things. COKIE ROBERTS:  Mr. Bauer. GARY BAUER:  Thanks Cokie.  You know I was undersecretary of education for a number of years under Ronald Reagan, and it was an incredible experience to be in that bureaucracy personally and be able to deal with it.  I had about 17,000 people that were under me at the department; a $17 billion budget.  Those bureaucrats were by and large nice people.  But I have to be honest with you.  I spent about 95% of every day saying "No" to the dopiest ideas I've ever heard of in my life.  They all thought they knew how to run the schools of New Hampshire and every other state better than the parents and the teachers of those states did.  That budget then of $17 billion, it's about $37 billion now.  It may be headed to over $40 billion.  I doubt if people in New Hampshire and around the country have noticed the improvement. We do need vouchers, educational choice; we need to get back to basics.  One of the sad things I found in the schools is that many of our children even at the high school level don't know the central moral idea behind America.  Again in the Declaration of Independence where it says, "All men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."  I asked that question at a high school recently and the student said, "I think it said, "All men are entitled to rights."  Well he left out the moral idea.  We need to teach all of our children that; we need to get back to basics.  In the words of Thomas Jefferson, we need to teach our children to have knowing heads and loving hearts because nothing less than that will do. COKIE ROBERTS:  Senator Hatch. SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  Well I have to say that Gary Bauer did a very good job when he was at the Department of Education.  I was a--I'm former chairman of the Labor and Human Resources Committee that oversaw the federal education programs and I agree with everything he just said.  I have to tell you education is far too important to be left to the federal government.  When the president calls for 100,000 teachers, that's a game.  He called for 100,000 police in the street.  All they did was provide more and more jobs, make-work jobs, that didn't get into the streets with regard to crime.  You're going to have the same thing with teachers.  Keep in mind Al Gore and President Clinton love public education so much that they sent all their children to private schools.  Now Elaine and I went to public schools, our six children went to public schools, we're proud of the public schools; we think we have great public schools in this country.  And I agree with Alan over here.  We pay about $11,000 per student in the District of Columbia, which is basically a federal school system, and those kids get the worst education in the country.  It's not fair to them.  Now we've got to do something about this.  And the best way to do it is gvie teachers, parents and children some choice here.  I think we can have the greatest school system in the world, but there ought to be choice.  If parents in these inner cities aren't getting good schooling for their children, they ought to be able to walk and they ought to be able to move those kids out of there.  And anything less than that really takes away the rights and the freedoms that all of us would like to have.  Let's take care of our kids.  Let's do what's right for our children.  My gosh. COKIE ROBERTS:  You know all of you have supported choice in some form. SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  Right. COKIE ROBERTS:  Yesterday the House of Representatives, the Republican-dominated House of Representatives took a vote on school vouchers.  They went down.  It also took a vote on Title I, the program for the disadvantaged.  It succeeded overwhelmingly  Would you all have voted that way and why do you think Republicans in the House did? STEVE FORBES:  I think that's why this election, Cokie, is so important.  We need to establish the basic principles that are going to govern this country going into the new century.  And in education, we've got to rip it out of Washington this idea that they can direct education, where Republicans and Democrats get in the thrall that government knows best, and get it back in the hands of parents.  You need a mandate from the electorate to do that.  You see it here in New Hampshire.  You have judicial activism, where unelected Supreme Court justices are trying to impose a state income tax.  Its happened in other parts of the country.  We have to say no, we have to give vouchers, scholarships back in the hands of parents so they can make that choice, not unelected bureaucrats and certainly not unelected judges. COKIE ROBERTS:  Go ahead Senator, I think it's-- SEN. JOHN McCAIN:  Just a brief comment.  Special education is an unfunded mandate.  The federal government has that obligation to pay for special education programs.  But the problem is compounded because local schools take discipline problems and put them in the special education programs.  We've got to tighten that up, but we also have to take care of our children who have special problems. COKIE ROBERTS:  Well what about this question of how the Republicans are voting? ALAN KEYES:  Well, I would have to say that what Senator McCain just said is a good example of what I think is part of the problem with the whole federal role in education.  Let's not pretend that the things that are being done at the local level aren't influenced by the sense that, "well, we'll get federal funds if we move over here," and that the way they make decisions is then distorted by the fact that the federal government is in various ways leveraging and manipulating control over those local institutions. That's why I think it is essential that we stop talking out of both sides of our mouths, stop talking about "national standards" and "what I'm gonna do when I get in there to make education this and that."  I'll tell you one thing: it's not what I'm going to do as President that will satisfy the need.  Am I going to put power back into the hands of people at the grassroots, so they can do what has to be done? And once I have achieved that, am I going to do what Ronald Reagan promised to do, abolish the federal Department of Education, so that we can make it clear that education is a local, grassroots responsibility? COKIE ROBERTS:  Well again that was before the Congress--it never happened. GARY BAUER:  Cokie, a couple of points.  First of all most Republicans did vote for choice, and most Democrats overwhelmingly voted against it because they are [inaud] control of the teacher unions.  I think there's something else we need to get at and it's simply this.  We need to get the courts out of the schools.  Not only here in New Hampshire do we see this judicial activism.  Out at Columbine High School six months ago you [] two boys, Eric and Dylan, coming to school every day giving each other the Nazi salute in the hallway.  Nobody sent them home, nobody brought them to the principal's office, nobody asked their parents to come in for a parent-teacher conference, and yet if a teacher at Columbine had hung up the Ten Commandments voluntarily she would have been in the principal's office the same day.  See the reason those boys weren't disciplined is that the administrators, the adults in that school, were afraid that they might violate the boys rights, that they would end up being dragged into court.  We've got to get these judges out of the classroom.  What's happening here in New Hampshire right now, with the state Supreme Court trying to run the schools is a state tragedy. COKIE ROBERTS:  Let me ask another judicial question.  Yesterday in the Senate there were a couple of votes, one on partial birth abortion, which was overwhelmingly voted against, but not overwhelmingly enough to override a presidential veto.  One on upholding Roe vs. Wade.  Senator McCain, you weren't there for that vote.  How would you have voted? SEN. JOHN McCAIN:  I would have said the Roe v. Wade--I would have voted for the abolishment of Roe vs. Wade. COKIE ROBERTS:  And--go ahead. SEN. JOHN McCAIN: I just wanted to get back to something that Gary was saying.  I went to a charter school with Bill Bennett, our former secretary of education, and walked into the classroom, third grade; teacher had on the table The Children's Book of Virtues.  The teacher was teaching the virtue of the month: Why we need to tell the truth.  She was asking the class, "Why is it important to tell the truth?"  "What happens when you donn't tell the truth?"  You wouldn't find that kind of dialogue in any public school  in America.  It has nothing to do with religion; it has to do with judeo-christian principles.  We need to put that back into our schools as well. ALAN KEYES: By the way, Senator, I think that the abolition of Roe vs. Wade would deserve a little louder affirmation than that, maybe a little clearer, in the sense that, "of course" you would have voted to abolish Roe vs. Wade, because it is not a matter of majority vote.  If our basic principle is correct, and our rights come from the Creator, then they don't come from our mother's choice. We need, at every opportunity, as we had to do with slavery and civil rights, to remind the American people that we, as a people, claim our rights based upon a premise that forbids it to us to deny those rights to other human creatures of God, including the creatures in the womb.  [Cokie Roberts tries to interject]. And I think that that was what that vote was about.  I am glad that the Republicans in the Senate overwhelmingly affirmed that truth.  And I think that it is a disgrace to suggest that we can back away from that fundamental principle of truth, and then expect our children to accept the notion that we ought to tell the truth.  Because if we abandon our fundamental principles, and we don't have the moral character at the public policy level, then we are setting such a bad example of truth for our children that we should expect their consciences to be corrupted. COKIE ROBERTS: Senator Hatch, today in response to those votes yesterday Governor Bush said here that people should be able to disagree about abortion rights and [inaud] to support adoption.  Should people be able to disagree on this subject? SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  You're asking the wrong person because that's a personal religous belief to me.  COKIE ROBERTS:  Should other people be able to disagree? SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  People should be able to believe the way they want to.  On the other hand, I think there are moral values that have to be upheld.  Back to the school districts, you know, one of the problems in  our schools today is that teachers have a very difficult time doing reasonable discipline for fear that they're going to be sued.  We've got to get away from that.  We've got too much of a litigation oriented society.  Parents are afraid that their kids won't be safe in schools today and we've got to resolve those problems.  You know the only fear a child should have in schools today ought to be the next test that's coming up.  It shouldnn't be whether the kid next to him is going to, is going to beat hiim up or use a gun or do something else.  And to be honest with you, we've had 12,000 kids--they're not just kids--caught illegally taking guns to school in violation of federal law.  Guess how many [inaudible]?  Thirteen.  GARY BAUER:  Cokie. SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  It's pathetic. GARY BAUER:  Governor Bush's comment is nonsensical  with all due respect to him.  I wish he was here so we could talk to him about it.  Nobody's suggesting that you can't believe something, or have an opinion in America.  The question is what [inaud] the law of the United States say.  I believe the law of the United States ought ot say that all of our children--black, white, rich, poor, [inaud], born and unborn ought to be welcomed into the world and protected by the law.  I will not put one judge on any federal court unless they believe that, unless they believe the words of our Declaration of Independence, unless they understand that our liberty doesn't come from them or the president or the Congress, that it comes from God and that he's the author of it. COKIE ROBERTS:  Mr. Forbes, I need to get you in here. STEVE FORBES:  Well, I thin the Declaration is very clear with unalienable rights--life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Our Founders put those rights in that order deliberately.  If you put liberty before life, that's a license to kill, which is what we have too often today.  And life is a God-endowed right, it is not a state-endowed right.  When that baby is conceived that is a separate being deserving full protection of the laws of this land. I think the ground is beginning to shift in America.  We saw it on the partial birth debate where Americans now realize this is a form of infanticide.  I've put forth a proposal to get step-by-step to convince the American people to move towards the life amendment.  And Gary is right.  Judges should be pro-life.  My running mate will be pro-life and share those principles.  I think we can change hearts and minds in America and have a country again--when you see that sonogram, that baby, that baby is deserving of the full protection of the laws [inaud]. COKIE ROBERTS:  We're just about out of time.  Go ahead Senator McCain and then I want to ask you all one last quick question. SEN. JOHN McCAIN:  ...17-year pro-life voting record; I'm proud of that.  We need to start a dialogue and discussion in this country how we can improve adoption.  I'm proud to be an adoptive father---that has enriched our lives.  We need to talk about foster care.  We need to tallk about many ways that we can work together both  pr-life and pro chooice people who share the goal of eliminating abortion.  There's too much polarization; there's too much bitterness and hatred and anger.  We need to sit down and have a dialogue.  I hold my views and my party holds our views of pro-life, but we cannot be exclusionary.  We must be inclusionary. COKIE ROBERTS:  Now let me just ask you very quickly, because we're really out of time.  Pat Buchanan, not here tonight.  We expect him Monday to announce that he's leaving the Republican party.  Good?  Bad?  Why? GARY BAUER:  Well I think anytime somebody leaves our party it's bad.  It was interesting in recent months to suddenly hear all that talk about big tent being dropped; when it came to a conservative leaving we found that the tent was fine without him.  I wish he could stay.  I certainly want his supporters to stay and quite frankly I'd like his supporters to vote for me because I believe that I've got the kind of conservative philosopy that they... COKIE ROBERTS:  All right, now I just need yes, no. GARY BAUER:  Oops. SEN. ORRIN HATCH:  I want to keep everybody in the party we can and I hate to see anybody go.   STEVE FORBES:  I think the key is if the Republican Party has an exciting, conservative, principled agenda, such as we had in the 1980s, whether there are three parties or ten parties, we will win.  If we have mush like we did in the recent elections we lose. SEN. JOHN McCAIN:  Pat Buchanan left the Republican Party. COKIE ROBERTS:  We're going to commercial at this point or whatever we have here or black.  And thank you very much and thank you for joining us at New Hampshire Public Television here in New Hampshire.

Copyright 1999  Eric M. Appleman/Democracy in Action.