Copyright Democracy in Action/Eric M. Appleman

ROBERT NOVAK: ...Grady Gammage Memorial Auditorium on the campus of Arizona State University.  I'm Robert Novak of CNN and the Chicago Sun-Times.

JOHN HOOK: And I'm John Hook of FOX 10 Television in Phoenix.  Thanks for being with us on a national broadcast as well as our Arizona viewers.  For the next 60 minutes, we're going to hear from four of the Republican candidates for president of the United States--should be an interesting, informative evening.

Joining us this evening are, from the left of your screen, Utah Senator Orrin Hatch [applause]; Steve Forbes [applause]; Arizona Senator John McCain [applause] and former U.S. Ambassador Alan Keyes [applause].  Thank you gentlemen.

ROBERT NOVAK: Now each candidate will have 60 seconds for an opening statement and throughout the evening each candidate will have 90 seconds uninterrupted to answer every question, and then we'll close with a minute from each candidate. 

Now to start the opening statements, we begin with Senator McCain. 

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Thank you Bob.  Thank you, and thank you John for being here tonight.  I want to thank all of you.  My voice is a little hoarse because I just came from a wonderful event, and that was the St. Louis--St. Louis! [laughs, audience laughter]--not St. Louis, the Arizona Cardinals defeated the Dallas Cowboys and it was a great victory [cheers].  Once before I called them St. Louis and didn't forget about that for a long time but that shows really that Arizona beats Texas right?  Maybe that's an omen.  [cheers]. 

I thank all of you for being here.  I thank for you honoring me with the privilege of serving you for 17 years.  I have tried to perform in the tradition of Barry Goldwater and Morris Udall and that is I stand by principle.  I will conduct that same kind of behavior in the White House.  I am proud to have served you.  I thank you for the years of friendship and support you have given me and I look forward to tonight's debate.  [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Mr. Forbes.

STEVE FORBES: Thank you very much and I want to thank all of you for the very warm welcome you've given to all of us tonight, particularly to me and my wife Sabina.  After 1996 we do feel that Arizona is our second home.

This is the third forum with Republican candidates for president and the American people are beginning to learn what we stand for, what we believe and why we believe it.  And that's essential.  They should know what every candidate believes before the election so they're not surprised after the election.

I'm running to put real ideas on the table to enable the American people to realize the American Dream in a new century and a new millennium.  My principles come from the words of Abraham Lincoln at Gettysburg when he talked about a new birth of freedom.  And I've put exciting proposals on taxes, health care, education, Social Security, life, military, and foreign policy to get the job done.  Thank you very much. [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Senator Hatch.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH: Thank you.  Thank you for inviting me to participate in the first debate in the West.  My name is Orrin Hatch and I'm running for president because I want to make sure in November of the year 2000 that the Clinton-Gore administration will finally be over. [applause]. 

We need a president who is a proven commonsense conservative, a president who has the experience from day one to take over and do a job and do it right.  We need somebody who is proven rather than unproven, somebody who is experienced rather than inexperienced, somebody who doesn't just promise, but has actually been there, has actually done it. 

You know actually, when you stop and think about it, the time has come to start fixing some of the problems in our society.  To fix this budget once and for all, to abolish the IRS and end its tyrannical reign and to stop penalizing gun owners and start jailing criminals with guns.  And I've got to tell you, it's time to recognize that the White House is an institution to be honored, not an institution for personal pleasure or private political gain.  I'd like your support.

ROBERT NOVAK: Ambassador Keyes.

ALAN KEYES: I want to thank everyone for the opportunity to share some thoughts this evening.  I think we'll have an exciting debate.  I do want folks to remember one thing though.  We're so often talked to as if these elections are all about us and about our selfish agendas and what we're going to get out of it.  I think its very important to remember that as citizens we hold in our hands the fate and future of this country, for our own sakes but also the sake of our posterity and the future.  we may not have an economic crisis today; we may not have huge wars and international problems, but all I have to do is say the name Bill Clinton and you are reminded that we are in the midst of the greatest moral crisis this nation has ever seen.

And I think it's time as citizens we took responsibility for addressing these issues like abortion and what's happening to our families that are destroying the heart and conscience of America and have fomented this crisis.  I think that's our top priority to deal with in the years ahead, and I would like to lead this country in articulating and dealing with those issues that are undermining our hope of liberty for the future.  We can do it if we're serious enough to take it on now.  [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Okay, our first question, our first question concerns an issue of great importance to the American people: Social Security.  This morning Governor Bush said that he might consider raising the retirement age to save Social Security.  Do you think that's a good idea and, if not, how would you save Social Security?

We'll start with Senator Hatch.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH: [inaud.] Social Security is a program that we've made firm commitments to keep going, especially for those who are already on and those who are about to come on.   But you need to know that by the year 2014, Social Security's going to start to go broke; that receipts will not equal obligations.  By the year 2025 we're going to have 75% more people on Social Security than we have today.  By the year 2035, we will only have 71% of the revenues necessary to pay for a hundred percent of Social Security. 

So we have to face these problems.  When Social Security was instituted, there were 46 workers for every 1 on Social Security; today there are 3.4 workers; by the year 2035 there'll be 2 workers for every 1 on Social Security.  We're going to have to do a lot of things including tax changes; we're going to have to look at everything we possibly can.  As far as I'm concerned, I think everything will be on the table, because we have to keep that program viable for the benefit of everybody, not just today but for the people in the future as well.

I believe that Social Security is something that all of us have promised to maintain.  We've got to do it, but we've got to face the music too.  We can't just keep spending, and the president's approach is just put more money into it--just cause taxpayers to pay more money, and in the end we're going to wind up with real problems on our hands.  We've got to face every one of these problems and face every possible solution we possibly can.

ROBERT NOVAK: Mr. Forbes.

STEVE FORBES: Well thank you.  Governor Bush, George W. Bush's proposal on Social Security is typical of Washington and that is make a promise and then find a way to retract that promise, break that promise.  The American people have put money into Social Security based on those promises.  Promises made should be promises kept. 

I've put specific proposals on the table not only to save Social Security for those who are on it and those about to go on it, but to phase in--turn a problem into an opportunity--to phase in a new program for younger people.  Give younger people a choice.  They can stay with the older system or an exciting new proposal where part and eventually the majority of their Social Security taxes will be deposited directly into your own personal retirement account.  Take it out of the hands of Washington; return it to we the people.

Don't let them waste that money and spend that money.  Invest it in America and you'll have far more in your retirement, America will be stronger, and the money will belong to you.  It will grow tax-free.  And if something happens to you, you die prematurely, you get to pass that money on to your spouse, to your children, to your grandchildren.  That's the way to turn a problem into an opportunity.  That's the way to give a new birth of freedom.  Put you in charge of those dollars--don't trust the Washington politicians, trust the American people.  Thank you.  [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Senator McCain.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: You know there was a poll not long ago that said that more young people believe, more young Americans believe that Elvis is alive than believe they'll ever see a Social Security check.  Now you know that sounds a little bizarre, but Elvis has been spotted in several places and no young American has yet to see an opportunity for them to receive their Social Security check.

Well it's not that hard.  You take 62% of the surplus and you put it into Social Security to make it solvent.  Then you take Congress and tell them to keep their hands off it; under no circumstances can they touch it.  No emergencies make it allowable; you know we have a new game in Washington, you call things emergencies.  We spent $4.5 billion on the census as an emergency, the 2000 Census; we didn't know the year 2000 was arriving.  So you've got to keep Congress' hands off of it and you've got to keep their hands off of it otherwise they will continue to raid it as we just did in this huge bill that we just passed.

The second thing you got to do is allow Americans to invest part of those taxes that they're paying in investments of their choice.  Since 1945, the Treasury bills for which they're presently invested are paying 3%.  The stock market has had an average of 5.5% since 1945.  Let 'em invest.  Let 'em invest it and it'll make their Social Security retirement solvent.  And we've got to do this and we've got to do it for the sake of the senior citizens as well as the next generation of Americans.

ROBERT NOVAK: Ambassador Keyes.

ALAN KEYES: For many years my slogan on Social Security has been simple and clear.  We've got to keep the promises we've made, 'cause folks who have paid into the system in good faith ought to be able to expect that they will get the benefits that they have been promised.  And we ought to guarantee that even if we have to pay for it out of general revenues.  But in order to make this system solvent, in order to put it back where it belongs, we have to stop making promises we can't keep. 

And one promise we can't keep is the promise that the government is going to manage the money that people earn over the course of their lifetimes better than the people who earn that money.  We go out and work for it, we make the sacrifices, we have the sense to support ourselves, then we ought to be trusted to invest that money in ways that will produce the best return for us and our families.  I think that that is the principle that we must implement.

Not only by the way in Social Security.  It's time we stop thanking politicians when they make these promises that they're going to let us have a little bit more control of our own money.  It's time we demanded back control of every last cent of all our money that we earn.  That's the way this country was when it was founded and we did not have, for instance, an income tax system that gives the government a preemptive claim to a certain percentage of our income. 

I think that we have to have a Social Security system that's based on giving the people who earn the money supervision over how its invested.  And I think in that context we also need to move forward, abolish the income tax and return to the original Constitution of America.  Fund the government with tariffs, duties and excise taxes, sales taxes, and in that way we will restore control of our money and our economy to the people.  [applause].

JOHN HOOK: All right gentlemen, let's move on to another topic that is of great frustration to many Americans--health care.  Rising HMO premiums; people sense out there declining care.  Do you favor any national strategy dealing with health care and what reforms would you make?

We begin with you Mr. Forbes.

STEVE FORBES: Well thank you very much.  Again, on health care George Bush has put nothing on the table--just vague ideas, nothing real.  I believe the solution to health care is to recognize that there's a major disconnect between the providers of health care and the customers, in this case the patient.  The solution is very simple, and that is put patient in charge of health care again.  You should be able to make a decision on the health care plan you want at an affordable cost.  And again my campaign has put forth specific proposals to put the patient in charge of health care resources.  It works.  Whether its medical savings accounts, giving people on Medicare the choice of several hundred different health care plans just as civilians who work for the federal government have today.  It works. 

At Forbes magazine, eight years ago, we instituted a new system.  We give our people $1,500 each year for routine medical expenses.  If you don't spend it, you get to keep it.  You choose fee for service.  You choose what you want.  And if your expenses are above that you have the deductible based on your salary and then you have the regular major medical insurance to cover your expenses about those 1,500.  And in eight years our expenses per person today are no higher than they were eight years ago and no one is forced into managed care.  Freedom works.

JOHN HOOK: All right, Senator McCain, the question is health care and a national policy.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: I have fought for a long time to try to rid Washington of the influence of special interests and the huge money which is now taking the government away from the people.  There is no greater example of that than the HMO problem.  We seem to be gridlocked between, on the Democrat side, because of the trial lawyers, they want to sue anybody for any reason under any circumstances.  On the Republican side, we're gridlocked by the money from the insurance companies and HMOs.

Congressman John Shattuck, who is here tonight, has a proposal which is worthy of consideration of all of us.  It's not real complicated.  Allow people to have a second opinion, allow people to sue after certain remedies have been attempted, allow a woman to see a gynecologist of her choice, allow emergency room care.

But I also want to talk about another aspect of this.  I've written a book, as you know, and I'm not here to hype it--Amazon dot com, 24.99, Random House.  [laughter].  But the fact is that World War II veterans come to my book signings; they come with their pictures.  We are appreciating this greatest generation thanks to Tom Brokaw's book The Greatest Generation, thanks to "Saving Private Ryan."  Americans are appreciating these wonderful men and women who made the world safe for democracy.  We are not giving them the health care that we promised them, was our obligation.  It's a national disgrace and I will change it and fix it.  Our veterans deserve it and they'll get it.

JOHN HOOK: Alan Keyes, health care.

ALAN KEYES: I think we ought to be very wary of solutions that suggest to us that we ought to turn the health care system somehow over to government domination, allowance and control.  In every area of our life where we followed that path we've gotten into trouble, starting for instance with our schools and education.  We certainly don't want to replicate that pattern in terms of health care.

I think we need to move in directions that will put power and control back in the hands of individual consumers and decision makers.  That includes medical savings accounts, that includes voucherizing big parts of the government-sponsored programs so that individuals have a stake in making the right decisions, going to providers that will provide them service they want at an price that they consider affordable.  That's what we do in every other walk of life.  Imagine that we bought cars the way we by health care.  Walking into the store, never looking at the price sticker, never understanding the relationship between what we're paying and the value we're getting and then sending something off to a third party to pay for it [inaud].  We need to empower consumers to  play their proper role in policing the relationship between price and value, and to do that we need to give them back control over there medical spending dollars.

JOHN HOOK: Finally Senator Hatch.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH: Well look.  Back in 1965 we were spending 41 million--$41 billion for total health care in this country.  Today it's over a trillion dollars 35 years later.  Just stop and think about it.  We have got a government set of programs that aren't working as well as they should. 

On the other hand, there are some programs that work well.  Back in 1984, I passed a bill that created the modern generic drug industry that cut drug prices in half and has saved taxpayers and especially senior citizens $10 billion a year every year over the last--ever since 1984, well over $100 billion.  I'm the author of the home health care bill, because we got tired of having everybody institutionalized at triple the cost.  And so what we did is we brought home health care into the homes where the people, senior citizens especially and those who are disabled, feel more acclimated, more cared for, feel more secure; they're more happy.  As a matter of fact, I'm the author of the orphan drug bill.  That bill gave some incentives to the private sector to develop over sixty orphan drugs for people in population groups of 200,000 or less. 

In other words, I'm not just talking about it; I've actually done it.  And I can list 50 other bills I think that we've done in health care that basically are saving money; they're done in a conservative way to block grant the funds and to really help people in our society.  That's what has to be done.  We have to face these problems and do the best we can to solve them.

ROBERT NOVAK: In all probability the next president of the United States will very early in his term have the extremely important responsibility of picking a new justice of the Supreme Court.  Who would be your role model for your first justice named to the Supreme Court of past or present justices?  We'll start with Senator McCain.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: Thank you Bob.  First of all there will be no litmus test of any select--or nominee that I may select from.  Second of all, I believe the criteria I would use is the closest adherence to the Constitution of the United States that this prospective nominee displayed throughout his or her judicial career.  And third of all I guess, my particular role model would be Judge Scalia.

ROBERT NOVAK: Ambassador Keyes.

ALAN KEYES: I [inaud]. give you an example of role models very easy.  My role model would be Clarence Thomas.  I think he represents an adherence to a proper understanding both in the basis in principle of the Constitution--respect for the transcendent law that we have to respect in our exercise of our rights.  And also he does have something that I guess I will have as a litmus test for my judges--I will want to make sure that they read the Constitution [laughter] 'cause it does-- 

For instance, I think they ought to read it and one litmus test will be, will be pay attention to what's in it and don't pretend that something that's not in it that's there.  For instance, separation of church and state is nowhere in the Constitution, so why do they talk about it as if it is. [cheers].  And yet in the Constitution it does require--hold it--it does require, it does require as the overall statement of our goal "to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."  Somebody tell me how they can pretend that killing babies in the womb, killing our 

[gap in tape]...

ORRIN HATCH: Well let's just understand something.  It's a lot more than just Supreme Court justices.  By the end of this president's eight-year tenure, he will have appointed 50-percent of the total federal judiciary and two Supreme Court justices, and the next president of the United States is going to appoint the other 50-percent and up to five Supreme Court justices; certainly three.

The number one criterion, it seems to me ought to be do they understand the role of judgment, which is to interpret the laws not make the laws.  Interpret the laws made by those who have to stand up and face the public once again.  These people are appointed, nominated and confirmed for life.  And I've got to tell you, its the single most important issue in this next campaign.  And the only one running for president this year who's had a lot of experience in that area happens to be me.  But I have to say it's tough to do when you have a president like President Clinton who's appointing liberals who are basically decent, honorable people who agree that they're going to interpret the laws rather than make them.

I have to say that there are at least three or four justices that I particularly admire, but there are many others as well.  But John Marshall, who really established the principle of judicial review.  The original, not the original, but certainly one of the early chief justices.  I have to say that I agree with Alan; Clarence Thomas has more than shown that he's got the guts to stand up and do what's right.  Justice Rehnquist, let me tell you.  Brennan and Marshall said he was the brightest, most intellectual judge, justice on the Court.  He's a great guy.  And Scalia.  I agree with John too.  Antonin Scalia is really the conservatives' conservative on the Court, although I haven't agreed with all of his opinions either.

ROBERT NOVAK: Mr. Forbes do you have a role model?

STEVE FORBES: I do indeed.  The two names have been mentioned tonight: Scalia and Thomas.  I think those are the kind of individuals of integrity who try to interpret the Constitution, what's in the Constitution, and not make it up as they go along.  Too many judges today take the attitude that they are philosopher kings, that they can make law from the bench.  That is a perversion of the Constitution.  And unfortunately, they haven't been challenged sufficiently.  Too many of these judges have been cleared by the Judiciary Committee.  Orrin, I hope when you're president you'll give them a sharper eye than you did some of these judges. [applause].  Because it is a perversion, it is an undermining of the Constitution, to have these individuals make law from the bench. 

We saw it in Roe v. Wade; we've seen it in other areas including partial birth abortion on the federal courts and state courts as well.  We see it in New Hampshire, where in that and other states they're trying to make law from the bench concerning education.  That is fundamentally wrong.

And in terms of principles and litmus tests, if you're going to appoint a judge for life, that judge ought to respect the sanctity of life.  And that is a principle with me--if you don't respect the sanctity of life, you're not going to be appointed to the federal bench, period.  and also too, and also too, I think it is very, very important that these judges understand the limitations.  And the Declaration of Independence put it right: Life, then liberty, then the pursuit of happiness.  Those will be my principles.  Thank you. [applause].

JOHN HOOK: Alan Keyes, I want to shift gears a little bit...

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