Copyright Democracy in Action/Eric M. Appleman

JOHN HOOK: Steve Forbes, question about gun control in this country.  We've seen terrible tragedies throughout this land.  Are there ways to protect the Second Amendment and still put restrictions on guns?  Ninety-one percent of Americans say they favor at least some responsible limits on the guns that are out there.

STEVE FORBES: Concerning violence in our schools, in our churches and in our streets, the key is law enforcement.  The key is enforcing existing law.  We have for example, concerning guns, 20,000 laws on the books today.  And despite all the hype from the Clinton-Gore administration, they're not enforcing the law as it is today.

Take for example schools.  It's illegal to bring a gun to school within a thousand feet of a school.  It's a violation of a federal law.  This administration--there were 6,000 violations of that law last year.  Out of those 6,000 cases, do you know how many were actually prosecuted?  About 12 or 13. 

You see it too in federal crimes committed with firearms.  Prosecutions way down.  People who try to get firearms illegally, felons, convicted criminals, they're not prosecuted.  That is what is needed.  Law enforcement.  There may be needs to close loopholes.  If a juvenile commits a violent crime, for example, that individual should never be allowed to own a firearm again throughout their life.  But the key is enforcement.  We've seen, in America's large cities--take America's largest city, New York; in six years because of good enforcement they've reduced the murder rate by almost two thirds.  You've seen the same thing happening in Boston and Richmond.  Enforcement is the key. 

You don't have to violate the Second Amendment.  We can have a society where law abiding citizens can have firearms and those who are criminals don't.  It's that simple.  Enforce the law.  Don't punish law abiding citizens who wish to own firearms.  [applause].

JOHN HOOK: Senator McCain.  Gun control.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: I'm a strong supporter of the Second Amendment.  I believe that, as Steve says, that existing laws have to be enforced.  This administration is not enforcing existing laws.  I'd also like to see enacted into law the bill that's hung between the House and the Senate now that calls for instant background checks, that closes the pawn shop loophole, that would provide--calls for safety locks on guns.  All of those things I think are constitutional and necessary.  I think we should also pursue technology which allows only the owner of a gun to fire a gun.  It's a fingerprint technology.

But there's another aspect of this problem that we have to look at.  If I took every weapon in Arizona and dumped it in the Gulf of Mexico, I could still take you to a web site that teaches children how to make a pipe bomb.  I could take you to a web site that has the worst hate and racist kind of stuff that I've ever seen in my long life.  We have got to as families understand what is affecting our children; we've got to get around the kitchen table and figure out what they're watching Internet and especially what Hollywood and other entertainment media are putting out.  And join with General Powell and Bill Bennett and General Schwartzkopf and me and many others who wrote a letter to Hollywood and said: Hollywood, restrain yourself; enact a code of conduct so that our children are not affected in an adverse way by some of the things that are literally assaulting them at this time.

I think that it's unfortunate that some people view it as the problem was all gun control and some view it as all Hollywood.  It is a combination that we as Americans, as families, as communities and as a nation have to sit down together and talk and work to get through this problem before more innocent people are killed and more children go astray.

JOHN HOOK: Alan Keyes.

ALAN KEYES: I don't think there's anybody in the country who would disagree with the notion that what we ought to be doing our utmost to make sure that criminals don't get guns and that those who use guns have the book thrown at them so that we will not have felons making use of these weapons against innocent citizens. 

But you and I both know that that's not the issue in the gun control debate.  The issue is whether or not we're going to respect the fundamental right in the Constitution.  And fear is being fomented now not about the criminal element but about ourselves.  We should no longer be trusted with guns.  Why?  'Cause we're not good enough to be free I suppose.  We no longer have the self-discipline, the character, the integrity necessary to have access to the means of self defense without killing ourselves and each other in some murderous fashion. 

That by the way is not a question about guns.  It's a question about our estimate of our own character, self-discipline and decency.  And I think it's time we began to understand the answer is not gun control any more than it's condoms and other forms of external control.  The answer is self-control and the basis of self-control is conscience, is the acknowledgment that our Founders put in the very foundation stone of this nation's life: that our rights come from God and must be exercised with respect for the existence and authority of God.  You want conscience back in America, put that principle back in our lives and in our hearts.  [applause].

JOHN HOOK: Senator Hatch.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH: Well I have to say that I've appreciated the comments of my colleagues.  Look, there are very few things that are explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.  This is an enumerated right.  The Second Amendment to the Constitution.  You know, look at all those unenumerated rights that the Court has conjured up out of thin air through emanations and penumbras through the years.  This is an enumerated right.

You're looking at the Senator who had to take on the whole Congress and put through the McClure-Volkmer bill that basically gives freedom to own and bear arms in this modern age.  As a matter of fact we've worked very hard to try and make sure that these rights are protected.  I've won two national "Man of the Year" awards with the NRA.  So you're talking to the wrong guy if you think I'm not going to stand up for the Second Amendment.

But it's a little bit difficult.  We have some radicals who are pro-gun, who are all-or-nothing people who are going to cost us the whole victory if they keep it up. 

Now look, Steve Forbes is right.  There are 12,000 cases where people have brought guns to school.  This administration's brought 13 actions in two years--eight one year; five the next.  It's illegal to give semi-automatic weapons to children.  Hardly any prosecutions.  We've had some 23,000 instant checks where people have illegally tried to by guns.  Only 65 prosecutions.

Look if I have my way we have 10-20-life.  Ten years if you commit a crime with a gun on you.  Twenty years if you fire that gun.  Life if you hurt anybody with it.  That's--

ROBERT NOVAK: Gentlemen if there were a fifth podium on this stage and the governor of Texas were standing behind it, what would you ask or say to Governor Bush?  Senator McCain. [laughter].

SEN. JOHN McCAIN: We've missed ya.

I think that I would probably ask Governor Bush to join me and many other young Americans particularly, in helping bring government back to the people and remove it from influence of special interests and big money in Washington.  That can't be done, my friends, unless we have campaign finance reform.

If you really want to reform the tax code, which is 44,000 pages long, full of special deals for special interests--every time we pass a tax code, a tax bill, it's full of more of it--if you really want to reform education and get the education system out of the grip of the teachers unions; if you really want to reform the military and reduce the influence of the defense contractors and their big money; if you really want to reform government, we've got to get this huge amounts of soft money, these uncontrolled contributions, out of American politics.

Now a lot of people say, including my friend Bob Novak, the American people don't care.  I can tell you, I've been campaigning for the last 11 months, and one of the reasons why our campaign is doing very well is because of my promise to give the government back to the people of this country, and I will do it just like Teddy Roosevelt did it, and just like other reformers have done it throughout our history because they deserve a lot better than what they get in Washington today.  [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Ambassador Keyes.

ALAN KEYES: To be honest if there were a fifth podium on this stage and G.W. Bush was behind it, I don't know that I'd address a single question to G.W. Bush.  I'd go on doing what I do anyway.  'Cause I don't think this election is about talking to G.W. Bush-- he doesn't want to talk to anybody else. [big laughter].  I think this election is about talking to the American people, and being honest with them, not lying to them.

It's time we got past this gutless, happy face approach to education that doesn't want to admit the truth.  G.W. Bush says we're not slouching toward Gomorrah.  He may be right you know.  We're not slouching toward Gomorrah; we're galloping toward Gommorah. [laughter].  I think we're doing more than that.  We're probably by now galloping around the town square in Gomorrah [laughter], and if we don't do something about it, if we don't do something about it, we will have lost the moral foundations that sustain our liberty.  And we need candidates who aren't so interested in pandering for their votes, for your votes, that they're unwilling to look you in the eye and speak the truth. 

The question of the last several years has not been about Bill Clinton's character or just the government's character or leaders' character, it's about your character and about how much longer you're going to tolerate the destruction of every decent principle of American life, starting with the principle that ought to guarantee the life of our children in the womb.  When are you going to wake up; when are you going to care enough about the future to stop listening to all these selfish appeals and start acting like the citizens you're supposed to be?  Caring about the country's future and about our posterity, not just about yourself.  I want to talk to you, not to him.  [big applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Senator Hatch.

SENATOR ORRIN HATCH:  Alan, amen.  [laughter].  That's all I care to say about it.  Let me add something else.  John brought up--  That's all I care to say about that.  Look, Governor Bush has, he deserves a lot of credit for raising the money he's raised and running the campaign he's run.

But to make a long story short, you know I listen to John on campaign finance reform.  Give me a break.  If McCain-Feingold passed, we basically would not have a Republican Party two years later. [applause].  I guarantee you.  And let me tell you why. 

John seems to think that every time a wealthy person gives somebody some money that wealthy person is trying to corrupt that person, or the person who takes that money is corrupt for taking it.  That's not so.  We're all people who give soft money.  We all, every group has something to say here.  But it's more than that.  The soft money that is given by Republicans to the national committee is the money we get out our vote with.  You take that away, we don't have one special interest that even comes close to the unions, who would do an independent expenditure campaign every year and get out the vote for the Democrats every stinking year.  Let me tell you something, if that bill passed, our party would be dead.  I think John knows that.  But what really bothers me that we have to go through that year after year after year, when frankly what we really need is disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, on the Internet within two weeks of receipts and expenditures, and then people could make up their own mind in this free land who they want to support. [applause].

ROBERT NOVAK: Mr. Forbes, Mr. Forbes, surely you have something you would like to say to the governor of Texas. [laughter].

STEVE FORBES: Well, there's more to life than fundraisers, that's one thing I'd say. [laughter].  But seriously, Alan is right.  When you address questions to George W. Bush you rarely get an answer or you get something that his tutors have cued him on just before the question and answer.  There are real differences between my campaign and his campaign.  He believes that government can guide us into the future.  I believe in the American people.  I believe that freedom, more freedom for the American people, is the way to the future.

You see it in education.  He wants Washington to be the catalyst for reform.  Washington is part of the problem in education.  I want parents, not politics, controlling our schools.  I want parents to have the freedom, the choice to choose the school that works for their children, not something from Washington.  You see it too in other areas.  Taxes.  He virtually raised taxes in Texas, tried to.  You see it in spending.  He has spending growth twice the rate of Clinton-Gore.  You see it in health care; where are his proposals?  So whether it's taxes, spending, health care, Social Security, foreign policy, Russia, China, there are huge differences.  He believes in the bureaucrats.  I believe in the people.  Abraham Lincoln was right.  A new birth of freedom comes from we the people, not from Washington, DC.  Thank you.  [applause].

JOHN HOOK: Candidates, we have time for a quick question, and I would start with Mr. Keyes, and this'll have to be brief in order to give time for your concluding remarks.  Your role models, the influences on your life.  Tick them off for us.

ALAN KEYES:
 

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